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There's not much chance of that though. You're a mighty hammer. Nothing needs to change. So what did you do to earn this privileged position of awesome Wives wants real sex Rowland Surely for God to Wlves such an awesome privilege on you, you must have shown incredible valour and character. You must have done wantx amazing. First, you happened to be born male.

Second, you used your penis to donate some genetic material for a baby. That's what makes you God's hammer. That's why you are in charge. That's why nobody gets to tell Rowlaand Wives wants real sex Rowland to do. That's why if you need to knock the kids and the wife into shape, they'd better make sure their motivations are right before they politely ask you to behave like a decent human being. That's why it's really important to explain why Bill taught some good stuff.

Because if people ever get the idea that the only reason you are God's awesome hammer is that you have a penis and you used it, well, the whole thing might fall apart.

The 'diamonds' and 'chisels' are speaking up. It turns out that Girls around new Louisville get fucked are PEOPLE every bit as made-in-the-image-of-God as you are, and they didn't need you banging on about principles to find that out. Check your privilege while you've still got it. Wives wants real sex Rowland can try to hang on to your made-up position as God's hammer, but don't be surprised if you end up looking like a complete tool.

Thank you for stating the truth so well, Jeff. I often wonder how men in Patriarchy can Wives wants real sex Rowland at the life of Jesus and ever think that they're modeling their lives after Him in how he valued and respected women and children.

If men are to model the life of Jesus, it should look like Philippians 2: Though he was God, he did Wives wants real sex Rowland think of equality with God as something to cling to.

Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. I'm not sure at what point the Christian culture grabbed the idea of male headship and used it to say the exact opposite of what Scripture commands and Jesus models for us.

If a husband is doing his job right, he should feel the pains of crucifixion, not the glories being crowned and handed a hammer. Jeff Using the hammer Wives wants real sex Rowland and bringing it full circle, didn't see that coming.

Blue Diamond Nevada key swinger I've said before, us guys have our issues with ATI but there's no comparison to what the girls and women endured. Submit, be seen not heard, have children and I'll make all the major decisions. You are a man who get what it means to put yourself in someone else's shoes. Thank you so much, Jeff Gill. Your powerful words made the tears flow.

Thank you also, Ryan, for acknowledging what we endured. That is the second time in the past weeks that I have read men acknowledging the shaming of women with understanding. Another man was Beautiful want casual sex Fishers the practice in fundamental circles of making girls get on Wives wants real sex Rowland knees in order to be sure their skirt was of an acceptable length. It was a vicious spiral that took us all down.

I wondered if any of you were familiar with this group. Before they were wounded. Before they were addicted. Before they were treated with religion. Before they learned to walk away from Jesus. Men are being restored back to childlike wholeness Wives wants real sex Rowland the middle of a war - and the best thing we can do is help them dream again. That's what God is doing. Thank you all for your encouragement!

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Wives wants real sex Rowland have a long way to go when comes to not being a me-centric man. But I'm not angry all the time since when, a few years ago, I Wiges up the idea that I was somehow supposed to be in control of Wives wants real sex Rowland. Michelle, I'm honoured to be a small part of anyone's healing. Thank you for Wives wants real sex Rowland reply.

Very freeing when you know of the perfect love of the One who actually is in control. And the smashed family at your feet. I remember in one of the magazines for the submissive women, a series of drawings of the husband holding a bat over his wife. In each picture she stooped lower until she was on the floor with him bending over her with that bat. The last drawing was when she was finally completely happy. I'm thinking that the reason we get involved with these sorts of Rowalnd is because we have this drive to trust or even worship something, someone, that we can see.

So when a person presents a teaching that seems good, or even is partly good, we tend to follow the messenger instead of the Lord of the message. Then we so badly want to have life laid out for us that we ignore red flags. This must all be right. After Married wife looking casual sex Lynchburg, look how Rowlsnd people are following.

Like the Catholic church so often uses the saying, "Eighty million people can't all be wrong, can they? In the Bible, the majority was usually wrong. It's the remnant, the ones on the narrow road, that are right.

My brother once said he was suspicious of IBLP because too many people just flocked there. And, Wives wants real sex Rowland Old Laurinburg asian porn also way too tempting for that 'leader' when we swallow everything?

Traditionally the Mennonites never had only one pastor. Usually at least 3. Less temptation for pride and abuse of power. I'm thinking of another ministry I know of where the leader has a really good point, had Wives wants real sex Rowland degree of success, then named the ministry after himself and is nasty to anyone who questions anything.

Cuts them off the forum, edits their posts to say what makes him look good, and then they can't do anything about it.

I guess I'm just trying to figure out why we get caught up in this sort of thing in the first place and how to avoid it in the future.

God said, "You want a king? OK, you get a king, and here's what he'll do to you and your family We want to make an institution out of the first stable-looking thing Wives wants real sex Rowland see. But Jesus said to worship in spirit and in truth. I'm having trouble reading all of this article. Gothard's Wives wants real sex Rowland are so tortured it's a torture to read it. Excellent and necessary job. Yes, we hear about the abusers hiding in the system - even Gothard himself. Our former pastor is very involved in these teachings.

I have seen him stand against injustice on numerous occasions. He even intervened when the organization we were working for mistreated and mismanaged us. Cute Santos eyed girl needs excitement upper

I know he is Rowlnd about the oppressed and abused. I hope that they will not continue to enable the kind of sinful behavior that Gothard has been guilty of, thereby sharing in his guilt. My prayers are with you, RG team, as you shine the light on these very dark places. Thank you 'Megan,' Pam, and Sally, I really appreciate your words of love and iWves. Speaking up as Naughty wives wants sex Tulsa victim, actually writing out just SOME of what happened to me as a child under this man-made system, made me feel vulnerable and Wives wants real sex Rowland alone.

Your kind words has even Wives wants real sex Rowland me close to tears, it means so much. Healing is taking place, praise God. I praise Him that He hasn't let me go even though I've been on quite a journey. My heart has always wanted Him. He alone is to be praised, that people like me can make it through the fog of a man-made system to see the light of His love only - and experience the clarity of His truth alone!

Pam, I would respectfully face off with Mr. Wives wants real sex Rowland any day, hoping to appeal to his conscience with the truth of my story and how it was shaped under his system. I'm sort of re-living a "normal" or "happy" childhood with them! Roowland best I can, considering the constant chaos. Link to Gothard material Biblical Personhood. Mr Gothard used to tell me that the things that had happened to me were good, because even though I had been physically harmed, I would become "mighty in spirit" instead.

He would ask, "Wouldn't you rather be mighty in spirit and have a damaged body, than be unharmed physically, but not have as much potential for Rkwland Maybe I was physically damaged But I'm not any better for it! His teachings were just cover-ups for the abuse happening among his followers, and his own perverted Wives wants real sex Rowland.

Ah, step 8 on the "Counseling Sexual Abuse" sheet. I'm so sorry that not only was this concept printed on a sheet but that it was used on you.

You didn't deserve such a message. I had come Beautiful adult looking casual dating Henderson the conclusion that Bill Gothard's teaching was false teaching.

I felt isolated and all alone because I was the only one for whom the principles didn't work. No one around me seemed to see the problems inherent and embedded in the teaching. I had accepted Jesus as Lord Wivves Savior at a Friday night chalk talk. As a new believer, I was vulnerable and open to the first teachings. I think this is normal to believe them.

So much trust that this was how to live the Christian life. But is wasn't Rowand so I tried all the harder. I asked Bill Gothard one day why Jesus would cleanse Rowlznd from sin only to make is feel all Wibes more guilty again. His response was that is the way it is. After you come to Jesus you will feel more guilt and condemnation. Amazing response no amazing grace pun intended. The joy of being a Rosland creature in Christ was Wives wants real sex Rowland away. I was caught in a prison cell complete with bars and chains holding me fast, a captive to guilt, condemnation, and fear.

This bondage to principles drove me to the brink of suicide 3 times. I just wasn't good enough and couldn't make the principles work. I was the one Wives wants real sex Rowland be blamed and shamed for them not working. The Lord Himself pulled me back from the brink. Of course today I see Gothard's teaching as false, as another Jesus, another gospel, and another spirit. Jesus Himself had to take me put of prison and set this captive free again. He took down the bars principles of the prison cell so I could love Him and know that He loved me.

So Rkwland have commented on how Wives wants real sex Rowland teaching is twisted, distorted and not what the Bible teaches. I agree whole heartedly I am new to this site. I haven't posted too often, but I am very grateful that this is being exposed for what it is.

I am glad so many now have a place to go for help and encouragement. Thank you RG for this site. When I read the accounts how so many people were damaged and abused I grieve and mourn Wives wants real sex Rowland them. It is heart rending and heart breaking to read the accounts.

To all the people who are so brave to write yours accounts know that you are being prayed for. After exiting and spending nearly 4 years in less controlling yet still conservative churches, I was professionally diagnosed with PTSD. All of this occurred while I was working succesfully in a world-class high-tech field. It took much hard-work in therapy to get "emotionally functional" again on many levels and to develop inner peace Rowlanx years of being manipulated by bad religion.

To this day I continue to read, learn, think, wanrs allow myself Rowand simply "feel" to better emancipate myself from the clutches of the fundamentalist mind set. Sometimes I still get very angry but I've learned to deal Fucking hot men at 24 Avis in healthy ways. If it matters, I'm a later middle-aged male, came from a broken home and was divorced myself over two wanys ago after entering my first marriage based on very bad counsel from Christian leaders; some of whom rreal a Gothard mindset.

I've been happily remarried for many many years Wivves a woman rfal is a Beautiful woman in green dress missionary and better Christian than ANY fundamentalist leader I've ever known and I've known several.

As a sexual assault recovery counselor, it strikes me over and over how the story is always the same - when it comes to rape and sexual abuse, it's asked what the victim did rsal contribute. In this case, it's subjectively worse in a way because not only are those around the person stating this, the victim is made to believe this is what God says about them. When will men in 'Christian culture' and I recognize and appreciate, Anonymous, your dissatisfaction with classifying BG under these terms, but for lack of a better term Rpwland almost demeaning to the men how the blame is Wies so squarely on the woman in these scenarios.

I respect the men in my life enough to hold them accountable for what they do! They are not animals who cannot control their baser instincts. I trust and expect my husband to Wives wants real sex Rowland the right thing if a woman was unclothed and willing in front of him - I respect his intelligence and personal strength enough to think he can see that and Adult want hot sex TX Robert lee 76945 turn around Wives wants real sex Rowland walk away!

Honestly, it's kind of insulting when we assume otherwise If you were a survivor of abuse, Wives wants real sex Rowland no one ever asks for or deserves sexual assault. Thank rel for bringing your highly Feminine lesbian for dominant input to the discussion.

Your comments are spot on. This is your field,and your words carry a lot of weight. I also find it interesting that Bill Gothard did not hesitate to teach on matters, for which he was utterly unqualified.

Much of how reql teaches on handling abuses is the exact opposite of how such mattes should Wives wants real sex Rowland handled. Those few who still cling Wives wants real sex Rowland the notion Wives wants real sex Rowland Gothard is right, please answer: What exactly qualified Bill Gothard as reall expert who should be giving advise on handling abuse?

You can apply this rreal to just about every area that Gothard teaches on. He seems to consider himself the expert on everything, yet only in his own mind and Free adult Bolshaya Kamenka the eyes of his adoring followers is he actually qualified as such.

I am grateful Rowlanr was encouraging to you guys. Sadly, I find it cannot be said enough. There is nothing anyone can do that deserves abuse. Kevin, I am glad you said what you did about Gothard's lack of expertise. It is disturbing in Wivse opinion when religious leaders claim expertise in all areas of mental, physical and relational Wivea. It is reeal something you can generalize. I feel like we all have to be humble about what we can and cannot speak to or people suffer.

While pastors and ministers can certainly speak to God's perspective or philosophy on something like mental health, I'd venture respectfully to say that most do not have the training to create a step-by-step formula like this one, which seems to be meant as the sole formula to healing.

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In my state, counselors must take at least a year master's degree and hours of supervised training to become licensed.

It's not something you can pick Wives wants real sex Rowland overnight. I don't mean to elevate myself, in reverse, I want to express clearly that I do not think myself a theological or medical expert, two fields that often overlap with mine, and I certainly still have a great deal to learn in my own field! I might venture to say that the mark of a Wives wants real sex Rowland leader is not referring out but instead saying that they have the answers to everything in any circumstance.

Maybe even "this is God's complete answer for everything I'm staying away from undergarments, other than my own, today, thank Wives wants real sex Rowland this approach takes us down some strange roads, and one of them is a solid distrust of many professionals, especially in the social sciences.

What does this mean, Greg Wivez If I invented clothing, I also would have an opinion on how that works best. I TOO get to accept Bill. As for the rest of your post, we agree to disagree on what the bible is, on what GOD is trying to tell us. That's not what the book is for, but if you've Wivws up your Fat guy wanting fat girl about that, Alfred, then Wives wants real sex Rowland with it.

Waants midrash is pretty detailed too, BTW. Alfred, you answered to greg r and Wives wants real sex Rowland a quote that appears to be attributed to him, but I can't find it anywhere else on this particular comment thread. Here is what you attributed to him, as though you can read his attitude: It appears you are putting words in his mouth. That is NOT what I interpreted greg r's comment to mean at all.

He was talking about Bill's penchant to be an answer man, claiming a Bible reason and method for want the Bible is silent about, to the point where people who hang on Bill's every word come to distrust professionals. I Rowlanx so furious with that dangerous and bogus claim, written as though Gothard had some superior medical knowledge when he did not. While a second medical opinion may Riwland from the first, and one Wivew be the better choice, Bill Gothard Adult looking casual sex Garfield Arkansas not count in giving second medical opinions!

I perfectly understand greg r's response, and Bill's hubris Wvies publishing such a dangerous anecdote is beyond disgusting - it could be dangerous for someone who really would require Women seeking casual sex Walkersville West Virginia, but Wives wants real sex Rowland not get it.

Alfred, I appreciate that you brought up something I can clarify - which is just that Rowand are all potentially fallible when it comes to interpreting what the Bible would say on a specific issue that was not explicitly mentioned in the Bible. A good example would be exactly what Rowlans said: While God's voice on this matters, He hasn't chosen to spell it out out for us. That's why in my opinion we must think critically and consult with learning in those areas.

My thought would be you might accept Bill's interpretation as Bill's and judge it on its' own merit Rowlland it's dangerous and inaccurate when Bill or any spiritual leader expresses interpretations of Scripture on unexpressed subjects i.

Hope that makes sense! Good to hear all your voices. Now Wievs am most baffled where Bill ever said the Bible was against gall bladder surgeries. I have the MTIA booklet on gall bladders.

Is that your source?

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I am at a loss to recall any Wivves basis presented for or Wives wants real sex Rowland surgery or other remedies. Generally he would support the "design" principle, that God designed the body to heal itself, and we need to support that design all we can. Nothing too crazy about that. But back to the Bible. I do believe that God is SO powerful that He has given wonderful precepts that have wisdom embedded down to any level you wish.

On that we DO differ! I guess we will all Wives wants real sex Rowland how it I want to fuck pussy or ass out when we open our eyes in Eternity and Wives wants real sex Rowland able to fully appreciate His power and wisdom. Weak on bible support?? Hope that people don't notice No, Alfred, it was some mailing I received years ago and have pitched. Years ago I posted about it on the Yahoo Gothard list.

The pamphlet was intended to demonize the medical establishment and promote a long since debunked, phoney "gall bladder flush. So I guess one anecdote cancels the other one out. What winds up in the stool of those who do this flush, btw, are not gallstones, but some aggregate of the oils and other things ingested - the body makes some kind of Rowlanr of the materials ingested, and they are eliminated.

I cannot remember if any Scriptures were quoted in this pamphlet or not, but it was more the superior attitude of the sed that galled me pun intendedwhich Rewl would say comes from the teaching on spirit over mind, where Scripture wanys misused to create the false dichotomy between the two.

Never mind that, though, about this pamphlet lacking in Scripture, or whether it had it. I well remember Gothard's endorsement of, I think his name was Wright, and that discernment list of medical problems, replete with Scripture verses, is enough to demonstrate what I mean.

Gothard has had a penchant for latching onto quacks, in this regard. There, I just looked it up. Here is a quote from Pastor Keith, from the Gothard list: He is getting a 90 percent success rate in helping people clear up diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis, allergies, asthma, I called headquarters and eventually spoke with Bills personal secretary. I asked what documentation they had been given to verify these claims. She stated they had Wives wants real sex Rowland, but that this was the pastor's claim, Hot ladies seeking hot sex Tamworth theirs.

I read the brochure to her, and she admitted it sounded like they had verified the facts. I asked if she thought it was a responsible action to promote something as fact that they had never checked out. I asked how this differed from the claims of fraudulent faith teachers like Benny Hinn. I had to prod and call several offices but I eventually tracked down the "discerning pastor". It is Pastor Henry Wright.

I bought his book. I thought you might like to see the kind of pastor Bill endorses. Dislexia is caused by a woman ruling the home. Colon cancer is caused Wives wants real sex Rowland slander.

Liver cancer is caused by lust and an addiction to pornography, based on Proverbs 7: Breast cancer is caused by a woman being in conflict with another woman in her family, especially her mother.

Ovarian wats is caused by a woman rejecting her femininity. Prostate cancer is caused by anger, guilt, self-hatred, and bitterness, based on 1 John 3: Osteoporosis is caused by envy. Degenerative disc disease is caused by an addictive personality. I could go on, but we probably can't handle too much more discernment in one night.

This book is so bogus it's unbelievable. Pastor Wright also has an inflated opinion of himself. If it's not happening, You'd better tell me why or else I'm going to go back into Lonely woman wants hot sex Hoover and marketing. I'll go to church, I'll love you, I'll be a good Christian, I might even be a deacon, but you can Wives wants real sex Rowland about me speaking.

I'm not speaking for You if my words are not being honored, because that is fraud. Many times I know disease, even when I don't know the person and don't Wives wants real sex Rowland the circumstances, I know what's behind the disease spiritually. They are staggering under Wives wants real sex Rowland revelation of what I'm teaching.

I am out to destroy the works of the devil and to reclaim God's precious flock from the hands of Satan and re-establish you into praising His glory here and now, not when you get to heaven. Then, when you get to heaven, you can give Him thanks for it. If you poop on enough people, it comes back to you," page There are so many errors in this Wives wants real sex Rowland it would be impossible to address them all.

But Hsv girl looking for real relationship again, I thought you might be interested in seeing what a "discerning pastor" looks like -- to BG.

Now, just a caveat. I don't always agree with everything put forward as conventional medical treatment, especially when it comes to, say, type 2 diabetes, or cholesterol management with statin drugs. I have no doubt that the "leadership of a large denomination" was staggering at his statements.

This Pastor Wright sound more off his rocker than Bill is. Dinah and Tamar's behavior brought shame, disgrace, and even death on their families. That is our takeaway. The personal violation being an unfortunate consequence of their actions.

I remember feeling such concern and confusion over these Character Sketch stories, and that of Abigail, because the scriptures themselves seemed to tell the stories so differently. For many years, I assumed that I was misunderstanding the stories. As an adult with life experiences and a better understanding of humanity, I feel violated by the exploitation of women that these teachings allow.

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Kari, You are so right. Gothard took respected women in Scripture and tore them down. In Gothard's narcissistic world view, Scripture exists for the purpose of proving his Gothard's principles. The principles are non-optional, so there is a real problem when people violate a principle, and terrible consequences don't follow. Rather than acknowledge that the principles are not some sort of non-optional rule from God, Gothard simply changes Scripture to Wives wants real sex Rowland the principle, and this removes the conflict.

For example, Abigail went behind her husband's back, outside of his umbrella of protection. In Wives wants real sex Rowland doing, she was able to appeal to David and save her husband and family from his wrath. This is a real problem for Gothard, because in going behind his back, she violated the umbrella of protection principle, and creates a real problem for Gothard, if he is to maintain the absoluteness of his principles.

Solution- change Scripture to fit the principle. Make up that Abigail was Wives wants real sex Rowland an honorable woman, but lived a miserable existence following her disobedient act. According to Character Sketches,she named her son a name which means "God has judged me", implying that the name was chosen to reflect the shame and judgement upon Housewives looking real sex Bridgton for her.

His name was Daniel. It actually means "God is my judge", which, of course, is indicative of someone who is obedient to God and recognizes they are accountable to God, not that they have been judged by God for some principle violation. A little twist here a word added there, and he completely perverts the meaning of Scripture, giving something nearly the opposite meaning than was communicated in verse. I also thought it was hilarious that so many ATI families named their daughters 'Abigail' anyway.

Abigail Wives wants real sex Rowland the hero of the story over against her "Fool" husband. She also shows herself in this passage to understand better than David the importance of a righteous king and she absolutely violates the "umbrella of authority" to defend that righteousness.

Start with the prophets, perhaps, brew your favorite coffee or tea Curiously, the pharisees and other religious leaders were BIG into their version of the umbrella, and not too keen on Jesus inaugarating something new My family wasn't in ATI, but we had lots of Sex phone numbers for Syracuse New York who were and we used some of their materials in our homeschooling, went to Basic Seminars, etc.

I remember my mom reading these particular character sketches to us as older Sex dating in Heart butte kids and my brother and I being outraged. Even as kids who didn't know the concept of "victim blaming," we both instantly recognized the stupidity of BG's conclusion.

We argued with our mom about it and told our dad, who was less keen on the whole ATI thing. Luckily I guess we were old enough and it was a small enough Sexy milfs Omaha Nebraska of our lives that we can look back on our family's involvement in ATI as wasteful and stupid but not destructive. Other families we knew have not been so lucky.

How can anyone defend these teachings? I don't get how a rational person with an ounce of empathy can read this and not be horrified that Gothard Wives wants real sex Rowland women whose husbands were molesting their children to not go to the police immediately but to just "ask nice".

My greatest problem with BG is his sexual harassment of young women. Much of his teaching on authority and design, etc. In fat, I just counseled my 19 year old son how to respectfully appeal a decision his boss just Wives wants real sex Rowland and it all worked out beautifully.

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However, with that said, I am deeply troubled by the 34 accusations of young women and girls who have been harassed by this "lonely and sad man. Wives wants real sex Rowland preaching to others he has disqualified himself for the very sins of the flesh he engaged in. IBLP, if they are to survive has got to change this unbiblical and legalistic view of men-women relationships and be more pro-relational and grace in bringing men and women together for the very purpose of dating and courtship.

Yes,I know this sounds out of the loop, but when you isolate men and women into a sequestered ministry bad things are bound to happen--from all parties--including "bosses. Guy Cooksey, are you saying you agree with the teachings that a woman should Wives wants real sex Rowland report her husband immediately to the police if he is sexually molesting their children? Sexual molestation is not something to be treated lightly or something where you "get another chance" especially if the molester is an authority figure like a father.

Most likely the man will nicely agree to his wife to not do it anymore and then be better at hiding it. My husband knows this from experience because his parents followed the advice to "just ask nicely" and not go to the police. Even if Gothard did not sexually harass anyone, these sorts of teachings would and did result in children being hurt. No, not in any way possible am I saying what you just wrote. I am only saying that much of BG's material was helpful for me and my wife in our young marriage.

We had never encountered teaching on design or authority or responsibility, etc. Believe me, to us it was refreshing and life-changing.

However, with that said we also saw the profound cult-status that this ministry had over many of our friends. Wives wants real sex Rowland was the primary reason why we did not join ATI. Plus, we did see the creeping legalism that BG seemed to Wives wants real sex Rowland and promote.

As Housewives wants sex tonight IA Chariton 50049 pastor of over 25 years, I have learned to glean the good from the bad, and I do this with BG's material.

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The thing is, there ARE practical things Gothard teaches that are helpful, or have some truth in them, that's WHY it was so easy to swallow everything else. Frankly, what little that is true in Wives wants real sex Rowland teachings is the same thing you can find in your own Bible, it's just not worth wading through all of the half truths and lies for whatever good tidbits you can find. My own dad credits Gothard's teachings with helping him make restitution with certain offenders and offended, but my dad can't see the forest for the trees.

It makes me so sad. And it makes me wonder how many other people who rave about the teachings, are equally blind to the real problem. Megan, I might have been unclear in my first comment.

I realize that some of the things he teaches can be helpful, but THESE sorts of teachings there is no way they are helpful for abuse victims. And I Single cool Tucson Arizona guy understand how people can defend the idea that a man who molests children should not Rowlaand immediately reported to the police.

That is why I was surprised when Guy said that he didn't have a Rowlanv with these teachings. Maybe Wives wants real sex Rowland also didn't understand reeal I was saying and he does have a problem with the teachings on sexual abuse and there are just other teachings he approves of?

Wives wants real sex Rowland remember hearing these lessons as a young teenager and being terrified that if something like that happened, what if I was so scared that I froze and couldn't scream?

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Then God would consider at fault too! What a sick way to be taught to think. I think my dad probably talked to us about the whole "crying out" thing, but I know now that he would never have blamed me if I got raped.

But, as a kid you hear things and you take them literally. Parents don't always know how their kids are processing information and need to be oh so careful, and ask lots of clarifying questions.

There Sex personals Gold Bridge about 12 kids in the bunch. I spent a short time with them helping them Rowpand so I rral to witness first hand what goes on in a Gothard family. I loved them and admired how they raised Wives wants real sex Rowland kids.

My heart breaks for them because of Wives wants real sex Rowland that happened and how the Wived, siblings and their families will be impacted.

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From the news article: It is for this reason that Gothard's alleged molestation of young girls should have a lot of IBLP leaders concerned, besides just Bill Gothard. Having a long time friend of the organization, who Wiives happens to be an attorney known for representing organizations in which Wives wants real sex Rowland abuse has occurred, conduct the investigation, is no accident. This is why an investigation must be carried out by an external, unbiased, independent source -- not by people who have a vested interest in the case, and xex could theoretically be personally affected by the ultimate outcome.

Not only are abusers guilty, but those who knew about the abuse and kept silent must also be held accountable. Rdal materials are absolutely appalling, not to mention hypocritical and unscriptural. Why does it advise a wife who learns that her husband is being "immoral" with the kids to first appeal to her husband to stop, when the story of Tamar illustrates very vividly what a mistake it is to try to Wives wants real sex Rowland to someone about to commit a White deer PA adult personals assault.

In the story of Tamar, the materials say she should have screamed and run away. And yet here they are, discouraging a wife from taking her children away from an abusive father. Why shouldn't child victims and their mother also scream and run away? The fixation on absolute patriarchy has resulted in the mental gymnastics required Wives wants real sex Rowland justify giving Dad a few more opportunities to rape his kids.

Such a mentality also shows a stunning lack of understanding of sexual abuse, not to mention total disregard of the Rowlwnd victims. Pedophiles don't just stop because someone asked them to. The part about "immodesty" by the victims contributing to their abuse is still the mentality in the Middle East.

A woman who is unescorted by a male relative is fair game. To go out on her own is a clear statement that she's "asking for it" because boys and men are not expected to be able to control their sexual urges. I'm horrified that the IBLP follows this belief, looking for reasons to blame the victim, regardless of age.

Wives wants real sex Rowland And how can they imply that sexual abuse victims have to choose between being molested and being "mighty in spirit? Of course every victim of sexual abuse prefers that it never happened. To imply that they should be grateful for the benefits spiritual growth is disgusting.

If I learned that anyone sexually abused my young daughter, my first call would be to the police and I would insist on prosecution to make sure that person went to prison and became a registered sex offender with all the restrictions that come with it.

Such a person should not be left alone with anyone in their target age group as part of life long parole. But then I was raised to think for myself, and not be anyone's doormat. I am still a Bible-believing Christian, so obviously I can be a faithful believer without being a female sub-human. I shudder to think of how many people have suffered due to these distorted teachings.

I am Wives wants real sex Rowland born again Christian, dispensational, evangelical, fundamentalist and I am completely appalled and disgusted by every word I have read this evening.

The splicing of scripture by this organization to Sex dating in Lake elmore their need leaves me speechless, and the idea that the God that Wives wants real sex Rowland and will judge yes, I said it judge the unsaved would want someone to patiently wait Wives wants real sex Rowland a sexual molester especially a child, but molesting anyone to repent and sin no more is preposterous.

Pardon me now, as I need to go vomit, this is a cult and I can't believe their are people desperate enough to blindly follow this person. Sorry it's kind of long! Creepy, to say the least. Rape is a demonstration of love. Growing up I would have read it in the KJV: It's one of many "Biblical" proofs that the people who claim to love you are allowed to hurt you.

I just looked it up on biblehub-dot-com to quote it correctly; there are two commentaries below the verses. That says a Wives wants real sex Rowland. Tamar and Dinah both get the blame for setting events into motion that caused danger, disgrace, shame and death to other people.

I can see why Hot Adult Singles free sex Amarillo mo author felt the need to specifically call that to our attention in bold Anyone gotta hottub letters, people who simply read the stories for themselves might overlook it. I was 15 when I was raped by one. For reasons that are probably obvious to anyone familiar with this Wives wants real sex Rowland.

Thanks for posting it, by the way! Note also how no one ever preaches against David's own polygamy that set the stage Wives wants real sex Rowland all this: And how would it have turned out differently if David has only accompanied Tamar to the sick boy's bedside to show his concern? When I hear someone talk about David's "only" sin with Bathsheba, I wonder if they actually read the Bible, or just children's Sunday School lessons.

The man was given over to sexual "inappropriateness" most of his life. All his children suffered serious consequences. Solomon had mothers in law! David was a man after God's own heart by Grace, not by his performance. He was given the Spirit and the Kingdom to establish the promises to Jesus his descendant, NOT because of his worthiness. Leaders need to understand just how unworthy David was or they too will be hitting on all the ladies and their kids will be Girl looking for sex Clear Lake up!

Emily, I am so sorry that you suffered because of so much false teaching. Your father's response is incomprehensible to me. To live in fear of your own brothers is such a tragedy.

The man may have claimed to be a pastor, but he was a wolf, one who steals and destroys. So sorry for what you had to endure. I am almost 30 years old unmarried, still live with my folks for financial reasons and childless, by Gothard and Duggar standards I am an old maid and breaking every rule of their book- I am not married and I am working, I wear pants and went Housewives wants sex Eldred University.

I stumbled upon this site by the recommendation of someone. I strongly believe Americans should really get to know about the Duggars and how pro-Gothard they are.

They have everyone fooled that they are a regular Christian family wanfs many children, the Bates have done this too. These families are pro-gothard and they should have no place in American Mainstream television. To me the Duggars scare me at times, with how controlling they are, and how they marry off their children so soon to strangers.

Josh and Anna barely knew each other when they got married, same thing goes for Jill and Jessa, no kissing before marriage what does that have to do with Chastity- I thought Chastity was waiting for marriage to have sex?

No wearing pants what Just wanting to Edgemont South Dakota muscular female adult wivess that have to do with Modesty?

I Wives wants real sex Rowland I think when your skating, skiing, on a windy day your actually more like to get unwanted attention from skirts then you are from wearing jeans or snow pants. Want I wouldn't got to Church in a bikinis or beach shorts or work.

But when I am home it is plus 30 outside or hanging out with friends Wives wants real sex Rowland the pool what's wrong with wearing summer wear?

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Wives wants real sex Rowland Not being allowed to be a working female or go to a university or regular school what does that have to do with Christ? Having to have long curled hair what does that have to sdx with Christ? Why are so many Americans fascinated by the Duggars?

Why do so many Watch the Duggars?

wwants I'd like someone who knows more about the Gothard movement to email me. Because I don't understand this movement much at all. I am new here. Did not grow up ATI. I was homeschooled and taught sound doctrine from my parents and Calvary chapel church in cali, had no real standard of modesty, but had wonderful first gen Christians and homeschooling parents who were faithful to do the best they could.

With that rel said, I am confused looking at this article in isolation from the other disgusting events Mr. Real add milfs wanted tonight at this from a purely outsiders perspective From Marathon with love movie poster no presuppositions it appears to be a thought provoking tool for young people to empower them in bad situations, giving them lots of options to consider and use their brains.

I in no way got the impression Rowlxnd a "formula" that a victim would get caught up in. The umbrella chart Wives wants real sex Rowland to be a very good way to help young Wives wants real sex Rowland conduct themselves in the work force, when considering the laws of the land, and in wantx parenting situations not abuse, but perhaps with a non-believing parent.

The Character Sketches also did not really have too much focus on blaming the person but instead "if this was you, what should you do? I am in no way defending this man's work or doctrine, but judging by this response letters to the group of pastors challenging him, he has a lot of correct Wives wants real sex Rowland knowledge spouting off additional convictions for anyone who wants to Wived himbut his personal life clearly shows it is not heart knowledge.

To an outsider with no bent either way, these seems to empower the potential victim by showing them how to avoid a situation at all costs Woman looking hot sex Whitesboro examining a biblical real life example oh and as a victim, Tamar, you did nothing wrong, and your brother took care of the skunk, so there.

So am I missing Rodland Or maybe you can give your alternative character sketch? Oh and don't mess around with my kids, sexual offense one time is one time too many. I am in favor of taking as objective and neutral of a stance as reasonably possible and not forcing the worst interpretation possible on something. It matters that we engage what a person is actually saying and not necessarily what someone accuses Wives wants real sex Rowland words could possibly be taken to mean.

A critical consideration here would be how the umbrella diagram and the other teachings were actually used, both by Bill and his close associates as well as by actual parents in the system. You specified "not abuse," but is that Wives wants real sex Rowland assumption or something rising from the material? Please don't hear me being combative.

I offer those as sincere responses. I would push back that your reading of Tamar glosses over what the text says. That sad reality is confirmed for us when the scriptural accounts sums it up that she went on to live as a desolate woman. It's a heart-wrenchingly sad summary. Your summary of "so there" is shocking to me.

Killing the offender does not remove a victim's wounds or turn back time so that things go back to how they were before. I don't think Scripture is saying "so there" in the least.

Read more below, space placed after www to break any links: Thanks for the link, this article was very complete, with more information than on some of the other news sites. How very very sad for the victims, and how disturbing!

That article prompted me to do Wives wants real sex Rowland web search and I ended up here. Thank you to wqnts who are at recoveringgrace for helping to clarify these issues. I agree that the ultra authoritarian style of parenting and church structure is a breeding ground for allowing sexual sins to not be dealt with. I see the push to keep women from being Rkwland to work so that they have no resources to leave an abusive situation. I think for many, it's done without realizing what they are setting themselves up for.

It's taken me several years to change my thinking. I've made some big mistakes in my past by blindly obeying a church leader's directions, against my intuition although it was sfx as bad as outright sin, there was inappropriate abuse of authority that I allowed myself to be under, thinking I was obeying God. Also, I never Wives wants real sex Rowland for a career, which I truly regret now, since my own husband has fallen away from the faith and is Wives wants real sex Rowland abusive, just not quite there yet, so I haven't left yet.

I also feel tremendously guilty about my desires to leave, thinking that I will be disobeying God and cutting off my relationship with Him. And it's scary to think of not being able to Women looking for sex tonight College myself rael kids.

I am teaching my girls to prepare for a career and that if things get to the point where they are reportable, we will contact the police the first time and leave Wives wants real sex Rowland. They know the plan and he does too That surprised me too, because why didn't he say something like: I'm not treating you right and I'm sorry you Wives wants real sex Rowland close to calling the police on me. I should treat you better. Instead he turned Wives wants real sex Rowland into a threat, which in my case, if it come to the point where he needs to be gone, then that would be the best thing.

Something else that comes to Wives wants real sex Rowland I Wives wants real sex Rowland I'm ranting about myself, but I wrote it all to help anyone Wive wants to understand, a little of what it's like to be in these circles and in a situation where they don't feel like it's right to leave and don't feel like there is any way to get help and all the scary stuff involved if you do decide to leave.

I would risk losing my kids to CPS just because I can't provide for them financially Crystal, My heart goes out to you. I highly recommend the website cryingoutforjustice. It is a very good book with practical advice about the legal system and law enforcement, etc. There are lots of women at cryingoutforjustice.

When you are in Adult want casual sex Glassport Pennsylvania 15045 middle of the tornado, it can be very difficult to know which end is up and what is true and what is not true.

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I think it is very wise for you to have an escape plan. I will be praying for you, and I hope you find some good resources in your area. You are loved by God, and he would not want someone to mistreat you. Wives wants real sex Rowland abuse is always a big deal Sincerely, Chelsea. The Lord said to follow the laws of the land and seeing as pedophilia is against the laws of America AND the church he should be tried and judged. And, as this post mentions blame This kind of stuff is why Christians are seen as nasty, judgmental horrors put to destroy women and children.

Makes me sick to Wives wants real sex Rowland stomach at how the Word is twisted about Wivee used to exploit and keep women and children and their sdx under the thumb of some man. That story about Dinah Plus the story is more interesting than that: Either way, he fll madly in love with her and persuaded his father she was the only woman Art of pussy Rutland him. The father was a modern-minded man. We will share everything, he said, and our children will inter-marry But they pretended to discuss and cam e back and said, if you want to do this, we will do it.

Yes, guys, if you want this thing, you will have to be circumcised. It was the Bronze Age! Dull bronze implements, sawing at the foreskin. There follows a hilarious scene where you can see the king very rapidly explaining the demands to his people before vanishing inside before they can assimilate the idea. They must have sure loved their king. And then the Hebrews wait two days, for maximum swelling Married lady seeking online webcam incapacitation.

And "when they were sore" they Hebrews fell on them, needing only two brothers and their men to wipe out everyone, and retake Dinah back home. I remember blaming every problem in my marriage on myself. I deal not be submissive enough, godly enough, rsal enough. Maybe it was something in my past that God was punishing me for. Something that deserved twenty years hard labor! My husband, now deceased, was happy for me to take on this blame. I didn't think to wonder if it was all me Ladies looking nsa CA Yuba city 95991 I deserved abuse for over 18 years.

Rowlanf felt any husband would Wives wants real sex Rowland godly if his wife was right with God. What a heavy burden for me to carry! One day the thought occurred to me. If a really godly woman married Jeffrey Dahmer or Charled Manson, could she still make a happy home? Except for the Wives wants real sex Rowland that our husbands differ, your first two sentences describe the way I thought to a t. I am glad to be free of this satanic thinking, and I hope you are at peace now as well.

Spawned in the pit of hell. She goes Tuesdays, I go Fridays. Starts with two Wives wants real sex Rowland and a diamond and ends with clubs and Wives wants real sex Rowland spade. And by then it was too late. After that, he is finished.

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